Archived:ARCHIVED CRAP

Location (older discussion)

In order to avoid forkbombing ourselves, I (Smith) move that we shortlist three options and pursue them. Proposing: Plan Japan, Plan Foxy (one of the train-based epics outlined below) and Plan N+1 (Micky's Istanbul option below)

 I think it's worth exploring all options at this point - remember last time we agreed on the balkan option from our initial list only to ultimately revise it into something more like the europe option. Most of the list below (except Scotland) seems worth considering, at least to me. We should of course prune options that no-one cares for as early as possible, in which interest I can only ask that we remain, in all things, perfectly clear. --Lmm
  Then in the interests of being, indeed, perfectly clear, let me (Smith) state at this time that my strong preference is for Japan and unlikely to change

• Japan?
  • A preliminary plan for Japan is under construction at ThreePlusOrMinusNGaijinInABoat
  • It is probable that I (Smith) can provide a bilingual guide in Osaka at any time except January and July
    • I would furthermore suggest that we do perhaps two major places (say Osaka and Tokyo) with a simple and painless transition between them
      • Not necessarily convinced - I rather liked the flying visit approach of the previous trip - but in practice I guess there're not so many places in Japan. I would want to see Kyoto at least, but that's a perfectly reasonable excursion from Osaka. --Lmm
      • I (Smith) move that we at least start in Osaka, because that way I can get there a week in advance and then meet you chaps
        • Things to do there (I am told):
          • Honourable Museum of Instant Noodle http://www.nissin-noodles.com/
          • Honourable Shikishima Baking Company http://www.pasconet.co.jp/index.php
          • Honourable Factory of Otabe-cake http://www.otabe.co.jp/
          • Honourable Aquarium of Many Fish http://www.kaiyukan.com/index.html
    • I'd also like to see Hiroshima, which is about 350km from Osaka and therefore doable as a day-trip with moderate difficulty (or with a night in a radioactive hotel)
      • Things to do there:
        • Honourable Memorial of Bomb of Atom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima_Memorial
    • If it's still there and the cats haven't all acquired extra legs by the power of atom, the Honourable Island of Many Cats would be neat (in case we didn't get enough cats in Dubrovneko and Kator) http://www.tofugu.com/2010/11/09/cat-island-japan/
      • Flights are looking to be around £500. II(S)RC that is, while more, not vastly more than Zagreb. Therefore, as long as we are mindful at all times of the error of Phlebas the Phoenician, I can see the overall cost per capita (all other things being equal, in particular the number of capitae) being a little more than that of Plan N, but not arduously so
• dash it all what *is* it that you see in japan
  • When you look into the abyss, &c
    • ... you see only ethnic underage girls being forced to offer themselves for sexual services; i object to at least some of that
      • Specifically, the qualifier "ethnic"?
      • now now, i do not approve of the forcing either; it is important to keep the "gentleman" part of "gentleman pervert"
• The Trans-Siberian Railway has been proposed with varying levels of seriousness
  • I meant it entirely seriously, but thought it would be best combined with the above (especially since I expect few people other than me to be interested) --Lmm
    • Apparently it is not as time-consuming as I (Smith) thought
    • six days four hours on the actual train, moscow to vladivostok (this is not allowing for touring time)
      • Getting off to tour mid-jaunt is harder than you might think
  • I (Smith) have also discovered a train called the Sibirjak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibirjak) that goes from Berlin to many interesting places: Novosibirsk, Kazan, Astana and the Russian-Abkhaz border to name a few options
    • Alas, it runs weekly, so pick only one interesting place. (My vote would be Astana)
      • Yeah, that's what I was trying to clarify by referring to options. Perhaps I should have been more perfectly clear
• Soviet Central Asia, China and Mongolia are also interesting places if we wish to go somewhere exotic
  • Combining this and the above, I (Smith) note that one can go from Moscow to Beijing by starting out on the Trans-Siberian and changing at Tarskaya, and that this is in fact substantially shorter than going all the way to Vladivostok (a city that appears to have almost exactly the same level of merit as a destination in its own right as the Snowdon Summit Restaurant)
    • ...and it is even possible to do this via Ulan Baator (http://www.seat61.com/Trans-Siberian.htm#Moscow - Beijing), but that is well over 10Mm
      • But only 6 days. I am coming to think that is the way to go.
        • It's been said that Ulan Baator is actually rather dull, but see above re the likely amount of getting-off-and-seeing-stuff time for why this might not matter. I (Smith) for one would consider it a justified modification to the route for the box-tickery alone
        • More on this kind of plan at NightOnTheGalacticRailroad
• Could do a road trip 2.0 to Istanbul now that we know about Kompas car rental; a Croatia/Serbia/Romania/Bulgaria/Turkey/Greece/Macedona/Albania/Kosovo/Bosnia route would actually have very little overlap with the previous effort
  • i rather like this idea
  • We could potentially hire in Istanbul, from where we can turn either West or East
    • possible but less likely to be nice about where we can go than kompas; also what is actually in anatolia/bithynia et pontus that makes it worth going east?
      • Probably precious little, but then what was there on the Adriatic coast? Not much. Personally I (Smith) feel the point of going East would be to get to somewhere excitingly exotic like Georgia or Armenia or Iraqi Kurdist-NO BAD SMITH
  • All wildly optimistic, assuming another 16 day plan.
• Israel, Palestine and perhaps some neighbouring countries would be interesting (and likely cheaper than venturing further afield), but I (Smith - who else, ololol) expect the Kosovo Passport Issue returns with a vengeance if we do this
  • and i expect that the "swathes of desert punctuated by terrorists" issue rears its ugly head
• Mesoamerica (i am saying this due to, as is well known, being a fanboy of mayincatec remains, languages, etc.)
  • It is expensive and time-consuming to get there
    • could be worse, could be china (i recall it not being *too* expensive?)
      • China is attainable by train, which while of course slower than an aircraft is more interesting and probably less draining than a long-haul flight
  • I don't think it would be substantially more expensive to get to than other places listed, and (done right) I suspect cost of living would be low. I would be for a not-very-ambitious tour of one (or two) countries there.
    • I see your Palestinian terrorists above and raise you South American bandits
• South Sudan
  • Probably a great place for budget safaris, but basically no way to plan ahead. Cities surprisingly expensive because everything is catering to oil companies.
    • Also death
• A different African country
  • nominate Madagascar
  • nominate Ethiopia, but I (Smith) feel this is somewhat academic
• Somewhere much nearer home, with a view to doing it on a camping basis (eg perhaps the Shetlands in summer)
• This will probably be of no interest to anyone else but me (Smith), but a radical alternative would be to find a language immersion course and go on it as a group - either in the UK or overseas

Dates

• A year after the previous one?
  • Good for purposes of holiday allowance
  • For me (Mike), any time after December is likely good, because I will not have enough holiday before that.
• At Comiket time?
• Setting aside the holiday-allowance issue for a moment, I (Smith) submit the following:
  • If we go for somewhere hot, then going in the winter might be an option
  • Conversely the Trans-Siberian and/or its branch lines might best be done in fairly high summer
    • A lot of what I (lmm) have read says to go in winter, as that is when Siberia is at its most... Siberian, whereas in summer it's basically just a bunch of forests.

Things to bear in mind

• There is a significant danger that this will become hilariously expensive
• On a scale of n to m, how attached are we to the idea of road-tripping as a method of transport?
  • road trip = trip by interesting transport (boat? (delian league, etc.)) = defined-tickboxy train trip (trans-siberian railway) > train trip > excursions from a hub by road > excursions from a hub by train
  • For my part, I (Smith) feel a train trip would not need to be a famous proper noun in order to compare favourably with a road trip; it would need merely to be sufficiently epic in scope (viz., Moscow-Beijing, Moscow-Ulan Baator-Beijing, Berlin-Novosibirsk etc). I think a boat trip would be risky indeed, as we do not know how all participants would fare over extended periods on the ocean wave
    • For the record, I (Mike) fare exceptionally badly over even relatively short periods on the ocean wave, so I would certainly not support any such idea.
• It has been suggested that we either go somewhere we speak-a the lingo, or make an effort to learn-a the lingo, in an effort to avoid going out in the metaphorical noonday sun

THE ROUTE

• The Plan We All Moderately Condoned

PLAN DETAILS

To occur 5th - 20th March 2011 Start dates doodle: http://doodle.com/gwu8fd3em8bb3rmn , for the duration of two weeks

To be a Road Trip

• See Car

Not to be ridiculously expensive

• See Costs

To ensure we can get into all the countries

• See Country Matters

Things to see and do

Accessories

Itinary

• TheUnrotatedPlan
• StPetersburgItinerary
• Istanbul
• Balkans
• A Plan that is Actually Balkan - far too sensible in milage
• Plan Theta Prime - too much Ukraine?

A Trip to Moscow?

Points of Interest:

• Belgium: ...
• Germany: ...
• Poland: Nazi bunkers, Gdansk, Wild Wisent, Masurian Lake District
• Belarus: More Wild Wisent, Minsk, Tyranny, Peat deposits
• Kaliningrad Oblast: (The Bridges of) Königsberg, some Pretty Awesome lagoons
• Lithuania: Vilnius?
• Latvia: Riga?
• Russia: Miles and miles of godless communist snow. Also Moscow is pretty cool.

Notable considerations

Trips in Europe are liable to be easier to arrange. Trips elsewhere are liable to require visas, etc. (which depending on the country may be easy or difficult to obtain). However, aranging a visa-equivalent for America is extremely simple (all that is required is to register online). However, car hire will be necessary. Also note that some of Eastern Europe may also require visas. Trips this side of the Iron Curtain are likely to be much nicer to drive in, in terms of road quality, vehicle quality and other road user driving quality.

Proposed Amendments

• Destination to be the USA Proposed: RG Aye: MP Nay: PB,MD,EH,BW

<Rev> I am disappointed to note that this amendment has gained the support of Mr Preece

<Philip> I could probably be persuaded to condone this plan, despite my nay-saying.  This has a variety of possibilities (e.g. East->West, East coast)

• Trip to be be a Train journey from Moscow to Vladivostok Proposed: PB Aye: Nay: BW PB

<Ben> Much as I do condone the Trans-Siberian, I think that travelling it in two weeks would involve lots of sitting on trains and not much of seeing Siberia. 

<Philip> I would probably concur with Ben on this.  I shall therefore nay-say my own suggestion

• Trip to be a Road Trip in the Balkans. Proposed: PB Aye: DS BW EH Nay:

<Ben> Driving issues notwithstanding, this has potential.

<Philip> I think I am including the whole Balkan peninsula in this suggestion, including Greece.  I have certainly visited very little of this area, and I would suspect that to be true of most of the potential attendees.

<Ben> This also has the advantage of potentially featuring a Mediterranean climate, which would be considerably more clement in March than, e.g. Russia.

• A slightly less adventurous approach of a Road Trip around some of Western Europe (perhaps Italy, Switzerland, Austria, etc.). Proposed: PB Aye: DS EH Nay: MD

<Philip> This has the possibility of a latitudinal or longitudinal approach, covering a variety of countries and cities.  It has the disadvantage that a lot of places we might consider are liable to have been visited by a subset of the attendees.

<lmm> This strikes me as a laming out option

<Smith> But also linguistically favourable

<Ed> at the risk of making the obvious joke, i concur with smith (latin is more likely to work also, lol)

• A slightly more adventurous approach of a Road Trip (or Bike Trip!) around the Caucasus (because where else can you visit a different language, ethnicity, alphabet, country and/or disputed territory every day of the week?) Proposed: BW Aye: PB EH Nay:

<Philip> This is liable to require quite a bit of thought, and require multiple visas (Azerbaijan: £55, Georgia: no visa required, Armenia: £30, Russia: £50), but I am interested.

<Smith> I am intrigued by the timescale that would be envisaged for cycling around the Caucasus

<Ed> i concur with philip and note the visae but consider it interesting

<Mike> Well, I object to the "bike" idea, for (hopefully) obvious reasons, and I also note the expense and inconvinientce of getting multiple visas (plus the possibility of getting caught in the crossfire of whatever war Russia gets into next, or getting shot for pointing out that, if Kosovo is worthy of independence, then surely so is Abkhazia...), but otherwise this doesn't seem all that bad an idea....

Attendees

• lmm
• Philip
• Ben
• Smith
• Ed